Category: News and Views
What are your views on immigration reform? I believe that no human being is illegal. Most immigrants that come to the US are trying to do it the right way. No one deserves to be taken from their homes or workplaces without just cause. Profileing due to color, speech, race, or anything is unacceptable. It has been a full few weeks of rallies and meetings to try to make changes to the current immigration system. I have the pleasure of knowing several immigrant workers through my organization and they are wonderful people. No one deserves to be abused.
The last thing this country needs is for people to come here illegally and take the jobs from people who bust their asses to try and feed their families.
We are fortunate to have a society that we do, currently. It seems as though rites we have had are starting to get taken away from us though. As a person who wants to work I see those who do not come in to this country legally as a threat to my future.
It is understandable that some countries have hardships, and people may want to flee and get away from that sort of instability. However, if you can't come here and become a legal citizen, you don't have a reason to be here.
Ok. So rather than give an opinion, at least to start with, I will do some 'splainin' for you. The explanations tend to upset the Loopy Leftie Loosies and the Tighty Whitey Righties of America, but it's real nonetheless.
I worked in Immigration in the 1980s and while that by no means makes me an expert, I at least have seen the situation from inside.
First off, clarification of terms: Illegal = here illegally. It's short for the term Illegal alien. Alien meaning not from here. Legal alien = not from here but legally here.
Documented vs. undocumented:
Well now, our Tighty Whitey frieends imagine that Undocumented is a politically correct term. What it really means is that the person in question has no documentation. Which probably means illegal. However, there are plenty of documented but illegal immigrants also. These are people whose visas expired, usually from the Orient or India or somewhere East who came to the U.S. to go to school, got landed a tempting job offer by a company here, and their documentation states they may study but does not state they may work here. Or it simply expires. More documented illegals are in the classes where most the Tighty Whiteys would accept them, seeing as Mexican is the New Black in America.
Wellfare / social services / Benefits: Next to impossible without any documentation. Recent surveys showed most your benefits money going to white, Southern Conservatives. They're often poor and eligible and so on the roles. Hard to get that done if you have no documentation, unless a particular state has a particular loophole which allows for it.
Enforcement: That is all the Immigration and Naturalization Service actually does. They decide based on the authority they've been given by Congress, much like the IRS does with taxation. The IRS, for instance, doesn't decide who gets taxed what, they simply collect on it and do related tasks. A bit of a simplification on both counts.
So while one could argue for or against any enforcement tactic taken by the INS, or for or against methods used, most of the criteria for status is managed on the law books.
Taking other jobs that Americans would otherwise take: Well, the Seasonal Agricultural Workers' Program showed us that one, didn't they? The fruit wasn't getting picked, and the growers went to President Ronald Reagan, who authorized the Amnesty program for Seasonal Agricultural Workers in the mid 1980s. I bring that up, not just because I was involved with it, but because it's an example of a real problem, and a real solution, managed by immigrants.
Quotas: Every nation on earth has to allow a certain number from certain demographic locations at a time, because quite obviously no nation state has endless supply of land, means and resources to manage a situation like this.
Find me one nation who doesn't do this. And America's immigration policies are actually quite liberal for a first-world nation where said policies actually get enforced.
Now for my opinion:
The best enforcement would be to drive off illegal labor opportunities. Meaning, if you're an employer who is found to hire illegals, you get punished to inconceivable and unbelievable proportions. That would upset the Tight Whites, since they're main sustenance comes from Big Corp, especially the People's Republic of China. However, that would sure get it done, wouldn't it?
To make this effective, though, every person would have a national card the way most countries do it, let the states have their individual drivers' licenses if they want, but the national card would show your classification. And, with that would become a database where an employer would be able to look up a prospective employee's information. The current I9 form is on the honor system, basically, and so is rather useless.
State-run halfhearted attempts like Arizona are riddled with mistakes and repeat entries and forever shall be riddled with mistakes and repeat entries, despite the fantasies people have about what they think they want.
So there ya go: I just popped two bubbles one pin.
I'm curious, if no one is an illegal, doesn't that mean that everyone is a citizen? And if everyone is a citizen, doesn't that mean we no longer have a border? And if we don't have a border, are we a country?
The language thing is what pisses me off, people coming into this country and refusing to learn English. And they're allowed to get customer service jobs.
The language thing is what gets me too. I have a heart and know sometimes people for whatever reason can't become legal in a timeframe that I might think is right. If you live here in the uS, you should learn the language of the country in which you live.
I find the language barrier very frustrating sometimes; when my cab driver cannot even assist me with the debit machine because we can't understand each other, I don't feel as though I've really been given good service, even if the driver was compitent and friendly. The problem is often that their English is good enough, but their accent makes them much more difficult to understand. And in Canada at least, many immigrants who pass the language test find that their skills are not in fact good enough to land them a decent job. This isn't their fault, of course; it isn't their responsibility to make sure the test is a good system of evaluation and I do sympathize with them. However, in service jobs at least, I think immigrants should have at least decent English, beyond the memorized script.
I honestly feel everyone should have the right to be able to come here and be a citizen. Other places are not as fortunate like us in the United States. I know a few people who have come in and they are hard working people because they want something better for themselves. Its not their fault that most americans are just too lazy to get up and grab a job. Its not even in the blind community you find that quality, my friend's dad would not work because he felt his wife working was good enough. My point is, people can get jobs whether illegals come in or not. The language thing, not everyone is a fast learner, I'm sure they don't refuse to learn. I mean there should be a good explanation for it.
Jo's right about the language thing: I've traveled overseas on many occasions, something a lot of Americans don't do, and I can attest to the fact that no matter how hard you work at it, the language thing really is a struggle. I do try and empathize and help where I can.
But if I do need visual type of assistance, I need someone I can understand. Since I can speak Spanish well enough, I have been able to use that in some situations with a customer service person but wouldn't work with someone from an Arab nation where there's no language similarity.
But none of this matters when it comes to legal immigration policy.
Yeah really. For one thing not everybody can do the rolling R, which is necessary for speaking languages like Spanish. I certainly can't get the hang of it.
I should go back to guatemala then ryan?
Yes. Go home. Lol.
No, the difference between you and many others is you are at least going to school and trying to do something with yourself. Many people come here for work, and by many I mean thousands of people. Well, it's hard enough to get work for anybody who tries and that only complicates the situation for those who need a job.
I believe people have the right to come here as long as they have there documents in order and are not coming here to live off the system. If your visa expires, then be come a citizen or flat out leave. After all, I have to pay taxes why not them? Yes, I do pay taxes through my job infact its a lot of money they take out of my check every year.
I am in agreement with starfly; I have no problem with legal immigration, but illegal immigration is illegal for a reason. Still, I must ask all of those who believe fluent English should be a requirement how many of them speak another language? I believe that anyone who doesn't speak English will get their deficiency shown to them when they can't get hired, but it's not their fault if they have an accent or don't know vocabulary words. I consider the "Your in the U.S., so speak English" idea as a clear sign of xenophobia.
No it's not. Phobia means fear. This isn't about a fear.
Yes, but being bilingual gives one more advantiges in the u.s. And, while people who come from the other countries should learn the language of the one they live in, why shouldn't it also apply to Americans?
Yes, I know that phobia means fear. The idea that everyone should learn fluent English is one more way of not knowing that they are foreigners, of making them all seem the same. If someone is afraid of foreigners, they may want them to all seem the same. See the link?
I couldn't care less if you want to live in another country without learning the language. If you don't learn the predominant language, at least well enough, you will not be hired or succeed in other ways. But you can go to Germany with semi-passing German and do well for a while. I furvently hope that you improve your German while you're there, but you don't have to be fluent to succeed. Same with other countries, including the U.S.
No, I don't speak another language but I am also not going to another country and expecting them to speak English or adapt to me because I don't speak their language.
My point exactly, Goddess.
Well then good for you, D.G. And maybe it's because you're not going to live in another country? But it's not all about you, or me, for that matter. Why do you think they teach spanish, french and other as foreign languages in high school? I'm not saying, go learn spanish. All I'm saying is that if you don't, fine so be it noone cares. However, we're in America, and, much of the land you've won by bloody wars has been owned by spanish speaking people. Some people who come here learn, and love the english language, so you can't adapt to them? How rediculous, sorry. The people that grow the vegetables we eat, the clerks, The people who pick up the trash once a week, drivers, etc. etc. all work for themselves, and give service to this country. Again, it's all about being greety, I say. How about the house cleaners and mades? Don't both american owner and the spanish speaking person have to adapt to each other? So, I personally think that if not criminals, people have the right to come here and make a better living for themselves. And people come here from many parts of the world, so while people should learn this language, again, why can't you? Because you don't feel like it, period.
Very well said! Its the people that shout go back to where you belong that don't belong here! America is about accepting everyone no matter who they are.
Really? Show me where that was written.
Oh, and I'm sick of hearing the "I must feed my large family" excuse. Stop breeding like goddamn rabbits and maybe you wouldn't have that problem. And no, I don't care if that offends someone. Flame all you like.
Oh so now you want population control? Move to China then.
I thought the conversation would turn in this direction eventually, and it is one of those issues I can see both sides of.
For one thing, the more time passes, the more people are being born. Eventually it is expected that the human population will become larger than it should. It will be expected that we will experience food shortages, limited space, and many other things along those lines. So the question is, should we take it apon ourselves to control the population so that we don't run in to this problem? Or should we just let things happen and nature will take care of the problem?
No one should play God.
Why not? It's loads of fun. Heheheh.
Hmm, I feel really mixed about this topic.
I know several immigrant families that have done things the right way, payed all their dues etc. One of my best friends recently became a citizen. On top of that, one of my grandmothers was actually an illegal alien for quite some time before she married. Even so, They all payed their dues, learned the things about america they needed to learn to make it here, and never tok advantage of the system. In the case of the hispanics I know, they all have made a serious effort to learn english, and even those with poor skills compared to some english speakers still have very good conversational language skills.
I even know some who came here illegally who did the right thing and declared themselves... they're now on the way to becoming citizens.
this all being the case, I also have met several illegals who have come here primarily to live off the system. considering in many cases and states, they can get more in the way of benefits than we can being blind, they really have no insentive to become legal and so on. they take work on the side/under the table, and pull in 2 incomes. One from the benefits, and another from the work they're doing. I've been told a fare few times by some immigrants "I came here, because you guys have everything. Why should I become legal when your country gives me everything I need, and I don't need to pay taxes. Fuck being legal, i'll just keep stealing. there are so many of us, odds are I'm not going to be deported."
those are the people I have problems with, because they make it harder on everyone trying to do the right thing.
Several hospitals in texas have been forced to shut down, because they can't afford to treat emergency rooms full of illegals who don't/won't pay for the care. either because they don't know they can qualify for benefits, or for some other reason. I suppose the question is how should we handle this. On one hand, I think denying life threatening service to anyone in need is morally wrong, but on the other how do we help these people who are not contributing? Do we treat all those who are legal/have a green card/have a visa first?
On the subject of knowing the language.
I don't expect an immigrant to have conversational language skills with in a year, two, or even 3 years of being in our country. But, if they do work a customer service job, I would prefer that they know enough english to understand what I want to order, make any changes to my order that I require, and answer any other questions I have. Lets face it, if I can't walk in to a place and order what I want to eat, the way I want to eat it, i'm not coming back. the completely infuriating process of having to deal with someone who doesn't understand you at all, and ending up with the wrong food is a serious buz kill. Same thing goes for calling a cab. If you don't know enough english to know where to take me, you shouldn't be driving a cab, or you should have gps or something to help you. I'm forgiving of peoples lack of english up to the point it starts costing me money. In DC I avoid calling some cab companies for example, because most of their drivers don't speak good enough english to get you where you are trying to go, with out charging an extra $15 or $20 to the meeter trying to figure it out. I've lived/visited several parts of the country, and they all have different populations and makeups of immigrants Sure, in texas and california, you'll find a lot of people migrating who have hispanic heritage. But in California, you'll also find a lot of asians. In the DC metro area, I've met immigrants from just about every part of the world... In parts of Michigan, you'll find people of several european origins moving in. If you can believe it, greeks are moving to parts of texas, as are several people from many asian countries. Its a huge melting pot of people.... I've met a lot who really are trying, and many others who are just doing enough to coast along. Funny enough, that reminds me a lot of many americans we know...
Totally agree. Also, if you work in a store, I should be able to ask you for a pack of sour skittles, and a six pack of root beer, and not get sour cream, and actual beer. That happened to a friend of mine once and he ended up having to get another customer to help him.
Very well said, post 28.
I'l throw my unpopular two cents into the ring here. About the so-called population control. No, saying that if you can't afford to feed your family, you should stop adding to it, is not advocating population control. It is advocating making good frickin' sense.
If you have six kids, and all six of them are starving, stop banging your wife, or have your wife swallow next time. Don't add a seventh, since you can't afford six. Its just like if you're a poor high school kid trying to save up for his first car, you go for a beat up chevy berretta or something, you don't go out and finance a ferari.
The problem with this policies of legal or illegal imigration is that it is always the weakest people who suffer and pay the bills.
I think the system of Visas is necessery unfortunately I would say! What for me is a shame for humanity is the lack of justice that often happens between some countries. I have a friend from Cape Vert who is A PHD student of history. He gives conferences everywhere in the world. It is a shame that he is always struggling with the deadline of his Visas. Yes it's an honor for this country that he is here and yet how do we treat him! I am in Portugal by the way.
So European citizens have the right to go to his country to burn their asses on their african sun and they have to struggle with Visas for coming here and to studdy and work? Where is the justice here?
Why americans can go to Poland without Visas an and polish people can not do the same? Don't sell me the national security of taking jobs from Americans.
I am not polish by the way! That one is gone longtime ago. From the moment americans will be ready to do all the dirty jobs they give to foreigners, we can start talking.
Also here, people say africans and brazilians here take our jobs in Portugal. But when we tell portuguese people to go clean the toilets of schools and bars, then the answer is: it is better to have the unemploiment money from the Social Security.
Why I can go to Morroco without visa and they can't?
Also my last point: some people here say, they come to our country, they have to do this and that. Either you like it or not it is an arrogant atitude. And remember the powerful economies don't necessarly remain the top economies for ever.
I live in a country from European Union who recieved a lot of emigrants on the nineties.
Now we are under an awful economic chrysis and for feeding my family I am being forced to emigrate. So before being arrogant, maybe think that one day you will be forced to emigrate to feed your children and when you will be hours waiting for the arrogant officers check your passports and treat you like an animal, you will remember what I am talking about!
So legal emigrants yes, but treat people with humanity because nationality doesn't give more rights of being human being!
You couldn't have been any clearer, sir Jorge! Besides, I think we're all equal, of course countries have laws, some fair and unfair, but heh, that's life. Very well said!